18 replies to this topic

[wmo27]

I am kind of frustrated a bit. i mean I have done 2 cycles now and have made decent gains. But nothing extraordinary to speak of. I mean it isnt obvious to me. I dont feel like I blow up. I dont look it IMO. I mean my GF says I look bigger, etc. But nothing obvious. I dont want it to be obvious I cycle! But when it IS obvious that somebody does its because they blow up! I get bigger. And I dont want it to be obvious like I said. But I feel like it isnt even noticeable! I am getting so fucking discouraged. I havent blown up. And I assume it is my diet and protein intake. I weigh 199lbs as of a few day ago. My BF% last time I checked was around 15% I think. I lift 3 days a week. I have improved my diet alot since I came off this 2nd cycle. I get enough cals, but they arent clean. I dont eat the same stuff ED. I eat this and that and probably get 3,000-4,000 cals per day ON cycle. I only take in maybe 125-250 grams of protien per day. The number is inconsistent and varies alot. I get stronger. i really do. And I feel great. my sex drive sky rockets. And I put on weight. But its not like I am that much bigger IMO than I was before. I mean I am, but I am not. It is to the point where I am discouraged by my gains, and by my dedication. I know what steroids can do. i see what it does to other people. And to me its not happening. something is wrong. I am getting critical, but at the same time using this negativity to try to nail dowmn my weakness in training and improve diet or protein intake or whatever. I need help. I have read a lot and I assume it is my protein intake or diet in general. or my workout. i workout 3 days per week, but I dont train per se. I mena I feel there is a difference between training and keeping logs of progress (which i intend to start) and just lifting. I dont know what else to say except I am kinda venting my frustration here. And I know ultimately it is up to me to nail this shit down. But I appreciate any help or advice. Like I said I know what gear does. I see it doing to otehrs what I desire it to do to me. So obviously I am doing something wrong

[Strateg0s]

Be more consistent and adjust your training. Right now, it isn't serious, you just go in 3x a week and throw weights around. That's silly. Put together a serious program and throw yourself into it.

I know you have GH, so if you add that into the equation in conjunction with a good cycle and consistent, proper diet, training, and recovery, then there is no reason you can't blow past 200 while dropping to single digit BF. For some solid insight into how to best use GH, I recommend that you check out some of the great posts on the subject at UKiron.net

[dr. death]

OK here are some big factors and common mistakes I have run across in 18 years of being a trainer. Ill post one later on nutrition. Without gear when I work with a client for three months they get a "wow what are you on". First you need to understand that growing is an adaption process. In order to grow you need muscle overload. In order to consistantly overload you need variation, because if you do the same things over and over your body adapts. Variation also hits different angles and supporting muscles which causes metabolism to rise. 3x a week tells me you probable have a routine push/pull/legs and probably do about the same stuff every time for sets of 10 or 12 or something. Routine is the opposite of variation.

1. Training to a number. Like doing 3 sets of ten. Muscles do not understand numbers. Just train with intensity and go until you have to break form. No forced reps but to the point that you could not do another rep without forcing it or breaking form. Then give yourself a range for starters for hypertrophy I usually recommend a weight you can get 6-12 reps with. If you can not get 6 its too heavy if you can get 12 move up next time. This is a good range to use for about 6-8 weeks then you need to cycle to a different range.

2. 3 days is not enough for you sorry for those who dissagree. You have been doing this a while and you need more intensity. Are you in such good shape that you could train every set to temp failure and still not loose intensity with 3 muscle groups for example chest shoulders and tris. post your goals by priority of what you want to grow and I will give you a sample program to use for 6 weeks.

3. Too many or two little sets for each muscle group. 20 sets for bi's... not, but i have seen people try it. here is my cookie cutter formula that works for most.
Chest 3 exercises x 3 sets. 1 heavy press 1 fly 1 set of cable fly or press or superset them
Shoulders heavy press x 3 lateral raise with pause on top for 1 sec x 3 rear delts with bands and hold on back x 3.
traps 4 sets of shrugs
triceps 3 exercises x 3 sets 1 heavy such as dips or close grip press on machine and 1 overhead and 1 rope pulldown
calves 5 sets of donkey calf raises with only 30 sec between
back 3 ex 4 sets plus stiff arm pulldowns . 1 heavy pulldown/ups 1 heavy row and one more either row or pulldown
bis - 3 ex 3 sets 1 heavy one precher one single arm or cable
hams - 2 ex 4 sets heavy
quads 3 exercise 5 sets plus adductor/abductor squats, press, extension w light weight and static squeeze as hard as you can during each rep to failure
low back 1-2 ex 4 sets

email us what your areas are that you want to build most and ones that you need least and i will write some more

[skookum]

It sounds as though, right now, you're kinda going thru the motions & not really employing all the necessary tools to promote growth.

1) Pick a program, whatever it is, and stick with it for ample time to see if it is bringing the results you're looking for. Right now I'm using DC - low volume, high intensity.

2) Get you diet screwed down tighter...Definitely get your protien intake bumped up, shoot for 1.5grams protien per lb. as a mininmum. I have seen great results by focusing on eating a fair amount of beef, buffalo and lean game meats. Adding mass isn't easy and you need to be eating ALOT all day long. I pack a cooler that goes with my all day & I eat out of it every few hours. If you find yourself in a jam, don't be afraid to choke down a few hamburgers (on occasion)- you've GOT to feed the furnace!

3) Use cardio to promote your metabolism and keep excess fat stores off while training & eating for mass. If you're schedule allows, cardio 1st thing in the morning on an empty stomach is very effective...

4) Use very basic supps & cycles - save your cash for LOTS of mass-building food

[wmo27]

imo its either:
1- yr gear is underdosed or fake
2- yr not eating enough
3- you need a break from gear

are you getting significantly stronger week to week no matter what? are you able to workout and work without feeling sore? almost like you have an "extra gear" or "more gas in yr tank" these are good indicators of being "on".

I still occasionally get sore-not always. But the stuff is def real. When I am on I can lift so much more weight with less effort. I am off right now and havent had sex in a week with my GF, but when I am on I need to orgasm at least once a day-sometimes multiple times. I think the problem is like you said Strat-I am basically throwing weights around a few day a week. I am working out and not actually training. I am getting ready for work right now and short on time, but later on I will try to post up my typical routine, etc and see if I can get some tips. Dr. death I may be PM'ing you here soon brotha if you can lend some more insihgt because what you said did sound helpful...

[wmo27]

I have only been focusing on upper body. I hiked a lot in the past and my legs are very strong-especially my calves. I have been focusing on upper body only till I get caught up and am more proportionate with my legs. My typical workout routine is Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I recently switched to this routine which is kind of a variation of DC only in that every other week the same muscle groups get hit twice. I dont do DC because I dont have a spotter to perform the rest/pause sets it requires. Also I am about to start keeping logs to know exactly how many sets of how many pounds I did the week before and always try to go a little more.

Mon- chest, shoulders, tris
4 sets of barbell or DB bench press
2 sets of decline
2 sets of incline (barbell or DB)
2 sets of dips
4 sets cable tricep pushdowns
2 sets tricep extensions or skullcrushers
4 sets cable lat raises
2 sets DB military press

Wed- back, biceps
4 sets deadlifts
4 sets unilateral cable pulldowns
2 or 3 sets of rows
2 or 3 sets reverse pec dec
3 sets cable curls
2 sets DB curls
2 sets EZ curls

Friday I repeat the Monday routine. So one week chest, tris and shoulders get hit twice. The next week they are on Wednesday and my back and bis get hit twice that week. Alternate back and forth so every other week each group is hit twice, then once, then twice, etc

I am trying to nail down whether it is my routine and intensity that suffers or more along the lines of diet and protein intake. Probably both. All of my lifting routines are maybe not the best. I came up with it myself. I havent really had any help with it and I havent been lifting very long in comparison. I have been lifting now for about 2 1/2 years. I am 29 years old. I never lifted in my life regularly until this last few years. So there it is if anybody sees any flaws or whatever. I know it needs work and I am trying to do that. In all honesty I wish I hadnt even maybe got into AS yet. Not at least until I had this nailed down 110%. I heard always do AT LEAST a year natural. I hear people say it but I didn't listen and really got into it after maybe 6 months. Please try not to flame me too much for starting too soon but that is the honest truth. Not that I have had any bad effects, but I feel like I have wasted money and I probably could have done most of all this w/o the AS until maybe a year ago. I totally pissed away what should have been the best cycles ever-the first ones only to realize I should have waited at least a little bit more to nail it all down better. Try not to flame too bad guys. I know I should have gotten this down before starting any AS ever. I am being honest to get advice on myself and work on my goals. And I cant get honest advice from anybody without you guys knowing a bit of honest history.

[wmo27]

Whether your legs are your strong point or not, you still need to hit them IMHO. Too many guys focus on their upper body but if you want some harmony, do legs once a week, wmo.

I won't comment on your exercises but I only work two muscles a day. You can do more but if you really hit them hard, two is a limit IMO.
I discussed this earlier with a competitor at my gym (he has been working out for 20 years among which 15 years all natural) and he insisted that to shock your muscles from time to time is necessary and that a routine will only give you results over a limited period of time (8 weeks). After that, you need to change it if you wanna see more progress. Whether you change the exercises or the muscles you work together, it's up to you. You might also want to do more sets with fewer reps or less sets with higher reps, increasing or decreasing the weight.

As I said, I'm stepping aside to let the big guys here tell you what's best for you, especially nuge who gives excellent advice.

thanks vin. I am hoping too that Nuge can give me some help here.....

[dr. death]

ok quick response then later i'll add some more. Not to be mean but I see a bunch of holes not just one. Way I see it bunch of things are hurting you. 1. diet 2. protien intake 3. unchanged routine 4. exercise selection/program design. few things you need leg workouts they effect your upper body growth in many different ways, they support core strength, flexability, and metabolism and also your ability to grow. The soviets used to squat at the beginning of every workout and had tremendous gains there are bunch of books on it. I consider adding legs a priority for you. I think you have too many sets to get the fullintensity out of all the muscles used in one workout and then you only do one more day and your metabolism goes back dowm.I would change your workout schedule a bit to a 4 day split 2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off lets say you started monday for example- mon back tues shoulders and tris wed off thurs legs friday chest and bis. sat sun off. I would need to know what your priority is shoulders or chest. Based on your program design I would guess your arms are fine but could be improved, shoulders are ok but chest is not where you want it. I will do all I can as far as getting you a solid program design for 6-8 weeks and then yes it needs to change. Your body grows based on overload when it tries to adapt to stress. Now when you do the same thing over and over you adapt to it and the body is stressed less. the best way to overload is to vary the excercise so that the body is not able to adapt. So whatever we figure out in design we need to reevaluate and rework in about 6 weeks. What I would want to know is your priorities then take, quad, calf, arm, chest, shoulders( run the tape all the way around back, chest and shoulders and finally and waist at the naval measurements. Also bf% by a caliper test. Aim your protien at a minimum of 190 grams a day but really you need about 280 or so. As far as right now you wont even need rest pause etc just train each set until temp failure when you need to break from no forced reps. As far as the AAS I dont think anyone should flame you especially because you are honest. I trained natural up until a few years ago when my nat production shut down and we took my levels to high normal and I like it. If I could go back to 20 ish and know what I know about training plus what i now know about AAS , you bet your ass i'd have started earlier. There just was not a ton around and my training never went to mass until 2000 ish. I used to do triathalons etc Best thing is to not get down on your self and there are a lot of good people here who support you and I will personally help you all I can. PM me all that stuff and then we'll work on a basic program for about 6 weeks and then retest and see where you are. Also let me know if you are going to be on cycle and how long you have been off. Also as was said basic cycles work. Test and deca are a nice inexpensive way to go.

[wmo27]

ok quick response then later i'll add some more. Not to be mean but I see a bunch of holes not just one. Way I see it bunch of things are hurting you. 1. diet 2. protien intake 3. unchanged routine 4. exercise selection/program design. few things you need leg workouts they effect your upper body growth in many different ways, they support core strength, flexability, and metabolism and also your ability to grow. The soviets used to squat at the beginning of every workout and had tremendous gains there are bunch of books on it. I consider adding legs a priority for you. I think you have too many sets to get the fullintensity out of all the muscles used in one workout and then you only do one more day and your metabolism goes back dowm.I would change your workout schedule a bit to a 4 day split 2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off lets say you started monday for example- mon back tues shoulders and tris wed off thurs legs friday chest and bis. sat sun off. I would need to know what your priority is shoulders or chest. Based on your program design I would guess your arms are fine but could be improved, shoulders are ok but chest is not where you want it. I will do all I can as far as getting you a solid program design for 6-8 weeks and then yes it needs to change. Your body grows based on overload when it tries to adapt to stress. Now when you do the same thing over and over you adapt to it and the body is stressed less. the best way to overload is to vary the excercise so that the body is not able to adapt. So whatever we figure out in design we need to reevaluate and rework in about 6 weeks. What I would want to know is your priorities then take, quad, calf, arm, chest, shoulders( run the tape all the way around back, chest and shoulders and finally and waist at the naval measurements. Also bf% by a caliper test. Aim your protien at a minimum of 190 grams a day but really you need about 280 or so. As far as right now you wont even need rest pause etc just train each set until temp failure when you need to break from no forced reps. As far as the AAS I dont think anyone should flame you especially because you are honest. I trained natural up until a few years ago when my nat production shut down and we took my levels to high normal and I like it. If I could go back to 20 ish and know what I know about training plus what i now know about AAS , you bet your ass i'd have started earlier. There just was not a ton around and my training never went to mass until 2000 ish. I used to do triathalons etc Best thing is to not get down on your self and there are a lot of good people here who support you and I will personally help you all I can. PM me all that stuff and then we'll work on a basic program for about 6 weeks and then retest and see where you are. Also let me know if you are going to be on cycle and how long you have been off. Also as was said basic cycles work. Test and deca are a nice inexpensive way to go.

This workout I previously posted is a fairly new one actually. I maybe have been doing it a month or so. My BF% was just checked today. It was 15% maybe 6 weeks ago. or maybe 2 months ago. today it was 9.9% with me weighing 205. I am 5'8" btw. The numbers sound like I am big. But I have seen guys that are 165 or 170 that look bigger and more ripped than me IMO. But those are my new numbers as of today. See I have a TON of leg muscle. My calves are massive. quads are big too. But maybe with my lower body I could do light weight and high reps to just tone the muscle and shed BF% more. You are right. shoulders are okay on me and traps are good for my current size. But my arms and chest lag big time. Especially my biceps... I am trying to figure out a way to get in this 4 day split. With my work schedule I am going to have to get up at 5:45 am and get to the gym by 6am. At night I have been doing this 3 day spilt, and I limit it to 3 days so I can spend quality time with my girl as much as I can in the evening on my no workout days. The thing is if I go to the 4 day split in the morning I will be getting about 7-8 hours sleep instead of the 8-9 hours I get now. I really have been busting my ass on getting my diet down, as you can see my BF% has gone down about 5%. It is hard to do, and I need to get cardio in too. A female PT at the gym today who checked my BF% said since the majority of my fat is around my gut and love handles (and I have some on my ass and chest) but when mostly around my midsection as it is, it is because of my poor diet probably. It has been improving buy there is a ton of cheating I do. as for cycles, I am starting another short ester cycle the beginning of October, in 3 more weeks! I am very excited. I want to do one of my longer ones I have actually, but after christmas I am going out of the country for vacation for 2 weeks and I feel like I would be wasting that time away if "on". If I do this short cycle, I can run it through and do a total PCT with IGF before the trip, then start a long one early next year. My protein is on the way. I take it now but only use 50g per day because i am low. when it comes in I am going to get 125g per day from shakes and try to eat at leats 100-150-g per day. I appreciate your help and time with this bro!

[BigWillieJoe]

DANG

Death you a fast typer if that is a quick response.....I'd still be hunting and pecking..Ha

Good dope, solid advice...

ok quick response then later i'll add some more. Not to be mean but I see a bunch of holes not just one. Way I see it bunch of things are hurting you. 1. diet 2. protien intake 3. unchanged routine 4. exercise selection/program design. few things you need leg workouts they effect your upper body growth in many different ways, they support core strength, flexability, and metabolism and also your ability to grow. The soviets used to squat at the beginning of every workout and had tremendous gains there are bunch of books on it. I consider adding legs a priority for you. I think you have too many sets to get the fullintensity out of all the muscles used in one workout and then you only do one more day and your metabolism goes back dowm.I would change your workout schedule a bit to a 4 day split 2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off lets say you started monday for example- mon back tues shoulders and tris wed off thurs legs friday chest and bis. sat sun off. I would need to know what your priority is shoulders or chest. Based on your program design I would guess your arms are fine but could be improved, shoulders are ok but chest is not where you want it. I will do all I can as far as getting you a solid program design for 6-8 weeks and then yes it needs to change. Your body grows based on overload when it tries to adapt to stress. Now when you do the same thing over and over you adapt to it and the body is stressed less. the best way to overload is to vary the excercise so that the body is not able to adapt. So whatever we figure out in design we need to reevaluate and rework in about 6 weeks. What I would want to know is your priorities then take, quad, calf, arm, chest, shoulders( run the tape all the way around back, chest and shoulders and finally and waist at the naval measurements. Also bf% by a caliper test. Aim your protien at a minimum of 190 grams a day but really you need about 280 or so. As far as right now you wont even need rest pause etc just train each set until temp failure when you need to break from no forced reps. As far as the AAS I dont think anyone should flame you especially because you are honest. I trained natural up until a few years ago when my nat production shut down and we took my levels to high normal and I like it. If I could go back to 20 ish and know what I know about training plus what i now know about AAS , you bet your ass i'd have started earlier. There just was not a ton around and my training never went to mass until 2000 ish. I used to do triathalons etc Best thing is to not get down on your self and there are a lot of good people here who support you and I will personally help you all I can. PM me all that stuff and then we'll work on a basic program for about 6 weeks and then retest and see where you are. Also let me know if you are going to be on cycle and how long you have been off. Also as was said basic cycles work. Test and deca are a nice inexpensive way to go.

[wmo27]

ok, I am switching to a 4 day split to change things up. I got up at 5:45 thismorning and was at the gym at 6am. I did chest and bis today. New routine is:

Mon: chest and bis
Tues: Legs, abs, cardio
Wed: off or cardio
Thurs: Tris and delts
Fri: Back
Sat and Sun: off or cardio

I am actually also cutting out a lot of carbs. I am not counting or doing no carbs, but just trying to eat less starches and sugars and stick to more veggies with my protein. The problem I have been wondering is I have started to use my HGH in a blast method. I am not using slin, so right after my workout I drink a ton of sugar (carbs) to have an insulin reaction before I shoot my HGH, then my IGF. So I am cutting carbs most of the time but taking in a LOT of carbs 3 days per week. I havent written out a log yet, but I am going to do that this week to track my progress. any thoughts?

[stewie]

imo some people respond diffrently with gear, but hey the juice doesnt have to be the way out maybe you can use it once in a while for the push in the mean time tweak yourself to be huge with or without, train more, eat more, protein more, sleep more try to do more of everything!!

[PitBullKing]

Sounds to me that your calorie intake and especially calories in the form of protein needs to be evaluated. 3k-4k calories is probably just not going to do it. I think if one is really on top of their diet, they should see a tremendous amount of success on gear. Diet is the rock of all regimens, training in the gym is very important, but the kitchen/dinner table is where the difference is made. Yes, after 6 weeks you need to evaluate your success and reprogram your training. If you change all the time you will not know what works best for your body. Dr. D sounds like he is going to get you going a bit better. Really, really focus on the diet bro. I do think people can make tremendous changes on a 3 day w/o regimen, but you will have to seperate yourself from the pretenders when you are in the gym and at the dinner table for sure. PBK

[test4meplz]

if your not gaining up the calories and when you stop gaining up them again. eat lots of protein and depending on diet lots of carbs or lots of fat. i like ketosis so i eat lots of fats and barely and carbs just greens. nothing wrong with 3 day split bro if you hit it extremely hard like i do with dc training.

[Richard Rash]

3 DAYS A WEEK? 125GRAMS OF PROTEIN?? 199LBS 15%BF?????????

LOOKS OBVIOUS AS HELL TO ME, YOU AIN'T LIFTING NEARLY ENOUGH TO GROW GOOD, FOR BEING ON A CYCLE YOU SHOULD BE LIFTING 6DAYS A WEEK.

YOUR DIET IS A JOKE YOU SHOULD BE PUTTING DOWN AT LEAST 6OOO CALORIES A DAY WITH 400GRAMS OF PROTEIN AND ALOT OF YOUR PROTEIN SHOULD BE FROM A GOOD FOOD SOURCE LIKE RED MEAT.

IF YOUR GOING TO CYCLE YOU NEED TO ACT LIKE IT OR JUST GO NATURAL BECAUSE YOUR JUST WASTING THE SHIT AND MAKING YOUR RECEPTORS MORE IMMUNE TO JUICE SO NOW IT WILL GET HARDER AND HARDER AND YOU GOING TO NEED TO UP YOUR DOSAGE.