22 replies to this topic

[manimal78]

fellas, I've been having this problem for a while: my back is lacking. For some reason, I never get a good pump in my lats,,i can never seem to make them sore...my back is just not near as receptive to heavy exercise as my other muscles are.

i've actually read about this phenomena in a few books by Vince Gironda..apparently, it's pretty common...however, nothing i do ever produces any decent lat/back development, not even what Gironda prescribes, which is to hold the lift at the point of contraction. (i.e. for a dumbbell row, you would hold the weight in the "up" position for about 3 seconds).

i'm 26, 195 lbs...

here's my normal back routine:

deadlifts, 4 x 8 (heavy)
dumbbell rows (or t-bar rows or low cable rows) 3 x 8 (heavy)
pullups (or pulldowns) 3 x 8 (using my own bodyweight)

What else can I do? I'm decently strong in all these lifts,,but I just cannot grow muscle.

please help.

thanks.

[manimal78]

Daves,

thanks for the reply

however,i'm well past the point of doing "basics." ive been lifting for 10 + years now,,,all my other muscle groups are doing fine.

but for some reason, I'm a hard-gainer in my back...I eat plenty too...I just cannot seem to be able to "blast" my back, no matter what I do.

[corrodo]

Daves,

thanks for the reply

however,i'm well past the point of doing "basics." ive been lifting for 10 + years now,,,all my other muscle groups are doing fine.

but for some reason, I'm a hard-gainer in my back...I eat plenty too...I just cannot seem to be able to "blast" my back, no matter what I do.

First thing comes to mind is perhaps your diet. You eating enough to grow? If YES then the second thing might be your arms. Some people use there arms more in there back movements taking emphasis off there back. I was one of those people who used to much bi's in my movements and when I concentrated on squeezing that back on each rep I started to grow. Just something to think about. I know alot of guys who have big arms but weak backs and its not due to lack of movements as much as lack of mind muscle connection.

[manimal78]

ya, i think i have a tendency to use my arms too much...my arms are, in fact, huge compared to other muscle groups.

ill work on that mind-muscle connection i guess...gotta start focusing on squeezing those lats instead of "pulling" with my arms.

my diet is fine, btw...it's not that...

[corrodo]

ya, i think i have a tendency to use my arms too much...my arms are, in fact, huge compared to other muscle groups.

ill work on that mind-muscle connection i guess...gotta start focusing on squeezing those lats instead of "pulling" with my arms.

my diet is fine, btw...it's not that...

Yeah bro I wasnt saying your diet is off, just figured when I have people ask me about back training its one of those two things I mentioned. Back is just one of those things you have to just go heavy on and kill it. Best of luck bro

[TKO]

Start working your back more than once a week.

Break up the workout into thickness and width.

1st Day - Thickness
Deads or Rack Pulls 5x5
T-Bar Row or Bent Over Row 3x8
Single Arm DB Row or other isolation movement 3x12

2nd Day - Width
Pull Ups or Chins, weighted, do negatives too 5x5
Lat Pull Down (your choice) 3x8
Straight Arm Lat Pull down 3x12

This way you hit both strength and hypertrophy rep. ranges and you hit it twice a week.

If that doesn't get your back to grow the problem is your diet.

[manimal78]

thanks, good brothers!!! i'll let yall know how my back turns out in the future.

[dr. death]

Daves,

thanks for the reply

however,i'm well past the point of doing "basics." ive been lifting for 10 + years now,,,all my other muscle groups are doing fine.

but for some reason, I'm a hard-gainer in my back...I eat plenty too...I just cannot seem to be able to "blast" my back, no matter what I do.

ok saw a few things- first everyone is trying to help so past the basics seems like a snap back. but heres a review of some basics which I am sure you are past. First, you list set number of reps and the word routine. Routine is the oposite of variation and vatiation is probably the most important key in muscle overload and confusion along with training to almost failure and not a number, such as lets say 8. Second the back is a larger muscle group and needs more work than most. I would make sure that you concentrate on squeezing the shoulder blades together and not using biceps firstly. then I would do 4-5 sets of a heavy pullup then 4-5 of a heavy row, then 4 sets of a lighter cable row or maybee a wide grip cable pulldown relaxing the arms and concentrating on the back. Then 3 sets of light cable pulldown with dual handles and get a good lat squeeze and just to a pump then 3 just pump finishing sets with a light cable 2 handed row. Also do you have a hammer pulldown machine, if so throw in a set of 100 before the pump sets and you will get a sick pump. Honestly I have been a trainer for 18 years and there are no true hard gainers, just people that need to learn how to stimulate thier back most as said use too much biceps and heavy weight and dont back the weight up and get the squeeze. Yes i know I said heavy but that is the heaviest weight you can squeeze. Try to practice pulldowns with cables for each hand so dual cables and let the forearm kinda hang and be pulled up the grip should be loose and then pull through the elbows and initiate the pull from the back only- you may have to drop to like 10-20 lbs and practice that 3x a week until you can totaly use just back and the arms are just hooks it will change everything for you. A basic formula for me that always has worked for even my clients with weaker backs is 4-5 sets pulldowns or ups then 4-5 rows then pick either a row or a pulldown for another 4 then just 3 pump sets with cables and dual stacks and handles each. You can always add that set of 100 too. another good idea is to spilt like tko said and he had some great exercises i like lighter stiff arm pulldowns, and you could add those as a pump and they would be great because they take the arms out. Good luck let us know how you are doing.

[manimal78]

so Dr. Death, as a trainer, you've seen this phenomena before? it's weird, like I do try to concentrate on squeezing just my lats, but they never seem to get a decent pump, nor do they get sore. I just don't "feel" my lats working like I can "feel" my other muscle groups working..it's very hard to explain unless you're in my position. it's like I lack muscle control in my lats. I think I lack that "mind-muscle connection" there.

and the weird thing is,,I do have a decent lat spread,,but the thing that bothers me is that I lack that "thickness" that you see in most bb'ers.

like i said before, Vince Gironda described it in a bunch of books he wrote.

I think I'm going to try lighter weight, higher reps for a while with my rowing movements. I'll keep the deadlifts the same, will continue doing pullups/pulldowns,,but I will do my best to concentrate more on my lats more when rowing. i'll definitely try stiff-arm pulldowns..

and by the way, Dr. Death,,when I used the word "routine," I definitely wasnt trying to convey that I do the same thing each workout...i use a lot of variation..also, when I said 3x8, I didnt mean that I literally stop at rep #8...it was just a roundabout number- I train to failure usually. I usually aim to use a weight to keep my reps above 6, but below 10..that's what works best for my other muscle groups...i do think that i will try higher reps....

do any of you guys happen to hit your back with high reps,,like as in 15-20 reps per set? if so, does that work for you?

any particular routine you guys use to "shock" those muscles? something high-intensity(like a decent superset or pre-exhaustion or drop-set routine for the lats)? I'd like to hit em hard tomorrow if I could..

[dr. death]

a lot of the tickness comes with varring exercises a lot. I also cycle my clients rep ranges. So yes 15-25 is great for 3 weeks or so then 6-10 then 10-20. You could also do thickness at lower reps and width at a higher. I recommend a minimum of 12 working sets for back plus as I said concentration/isometric/pump ones with dual stack and single handles so you can get those good sqeezes and then add just 3-4 sets of the squeezes 2 more times a week to get used to focus on the lats. Honestly I would scrap the deads just for about six weeks, they use a lot of energy and are not a direct back movement. Here is what i would have you try 3 sets of pullups with a rep range of 5-9 add weight if you have to. Then 2 sets of machine not cable pulldowns a little lighter and concentrate on the squeeze 15-25 reps. then a 8-12 rep row like a bent over but slightly incline a bench and lay face down to do it or tbars unsupported for 4 sets. then stiff arm pulldowns 4 sets of 12-16 then if you have a hammer pulldown machine or even a let pulldown machine set it to 40-60 lbs or so and do a set of a 100 reps you should have to go to rest pause around 85-93. then the pump/isometric sets for 3 each.

[davezombie]

ya, i think i have a tendency to use my arms too much...my arms are, in fact, huge compared to other muscle groups.

ill work on that mind-muscle connection i guess...gotta start focusing on squeezing those lats instead of "pulling" with my arms.

my diet is fine, btw...it's not that...

use under hand grips for everthing except pullups.Takes the bi's right out of the equation.Face pulls also help alot.

[meowmeow]

You've gotten awesome advice. I wish I had "discovered" and spent time on this board...there is a lot of knowledge here.

I would simply add that you might want to do some sets of scapula retractions and use hooks or wraps to take your grip out of all pulling movements. These things will help you train your muscles to initiate and really pull the movement properly.

Just my 2 cents.

[manimal78]

1- i actually do have a spinal problem, according to a chiropractor. from football...instead of an S-shaped curve to my spine (when viewed from the side), it's perfectly straight. Doc thought i fell on my head as a kid or was in an accident...was football drills. MAYBE THIS IS CAUSING A PROBLEM??? HMMM

2- i've tried most lifts...did a little high-rep back work and straight-arm pulldowns back in college,,but didnt notice much difference in my lats. then again, i probably wasnt concentrating on the lats adequately.

3- i eat plenty and take plenty of protein..that's not the problem here.

4- i sleep at least 8 hrs. per night..no drugs except weed occasionally. probably dont drink 2 gallons of h2o.

5- have done lengthy cycles..no tren though..have gone up to 800mgs of test weekly.

Fact I have on left side back muscle that is small than the one on the right side, my chiropractor noticed it and pointed it out to me and I totally noticed it after I really started looking. I actually had a nerve that was fucked up from an accident and it was causing me to get limited response from the muscle.

Fact he told me sometime people with trauma from football, skiing, car accidents , can have 50% or more of there back with this problem. So first off have you had any hits to your back/spine?

Second Your past the basics so you'd tried every diffrent type of lift and you've tried Hi-rep back workouts and you've tried low rep- high weight lifts and you've tried a good mix of them at a diffrent time also I take it right?

Have you tried eating untill you puke and massive amounts of protien eating 6 medium sized meals a day and 6protien shakes 40g protien per shake? Have you tried all of this?

Have you gotten good rest full 8hours periods? Your not smoking or taking any drugs are you? Are you drinking close to 2gallons of water a day?

Have you taken big lengthy cycles of roids? Have you broken the 1000mg week of test cycles mixed with deca dbol winny tren and so forth?

If you can say yes to all of these then you are FUCKT genetically. Good luck with your depression meds.

Seriously if you have said yes then after 10years of that I'd go see a doc about your back and nerves and get a MRI done, and tell him you want your back to be HUGE and see what he says, if he laughs looks at him with evil roid eyes and tell him your going you fuckin snap his arms like twings unless he makes your back HUGE.

And thats all I can tell you, seriously though get back to me on all the stuff that I wrote that isn't bullshit. Peace out cub scout and dont trip chicken strip

[any1uno]

Instead of DB rows I'd incorporate BB rows. Using strict form. Do not go heavy if your form isn't correct.

I like MeowMeow's advice of using wrist straps or hooks. They pretty much take all the bicep out of the picture.

Don't just do pull ups... do weighted pull ups Wide grip and than close. I'd suggest not doing any pulldowns or pull ups behind the neck to avoid rotator cuff injuries or possible cervical spine injuries.

One area I'm going towards...Bench. What does your bench routine look like? The reason why I ask is because back plays a big part in benching. If you concentrate on squeezing your shoulder blades together while doing the bench your back gets a workout as well as your bench goes up.

You're getting some great advice here.

[manimal78]

my bench routine varies, but usually it looks something like:

3 x 6-8 heavy incline presses in a Smith machine (i use a Smith machine b/c i have shoulder problems and have trouble w/ other benching exercises.)
3 x 8 weighted dips (w/ a 35 lb. weight attached)
3 x 8 incline on a Hammer Press machine
3 x 8 dumbbell flies (making sure to stretch my pecs to the max w/ light weight).

that's pretty much it...i may add variations here and there...but my chest development is fine..