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need help with back/lats


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#16 TKO

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 08:57 AM

QUOTE(dr. death @ Sep 11 2007, 06:12 PM) View Post

a lot of the tickness comes with varring exercises a lot. I also cycle my clients rep ranges. So yes 15-25 is great for 3 weeks or so then 6-10 then 10-20. You could also do thickness at lower reps and width at a higher. I recommend a minimum of 12 working sets for back plus as I said concentration/isometric/pump ones with dual stack and single handles so you can get those good sqeezes and then add just 3-4 sets of the squeezes 2 more times a week to get used to focus on the lats. Honestly I would scrap the deads just for about six weeks, they use a lot of energy and are not a direct back movement. Here is what i would have you try 3 sets of pullups with a rep range of 5-9 add weight if you have to. Then 2 sets of machine not cable pulldowns a little lighter and concentrate on the squeeze 15-25 reps. then a 8-12 rep row like a bent over but slightly incline a bench and lay face down to do it or tbars unsupported for 4 sets. then stiff arm pulldowns 4 sets of 12-16 then if you have a hammer pulldown machine or even a let pulldown machine set it to 40-60 lbs or so and do a set of a 100 reps you should have to go to rest pause around 85-93. then the pump/isometric sets for 3 each.


A couple of questions if you don't mind....

-Why change rep ranges only every three weeks or so?
-Why such high rep ranges?
-Why so many sets?
-Why scap the deads? Couldn't he just do rack pulls instead since that's the part of the movement that focuses on the back?
-Why do sets of 100 of anything?


#17 dr. death

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 10:34 AM

No prob..
-Why change rep ranges only every three weeks or so? gives the body time to start to adapt-but not adapt fully- you could actually change rep ranges every exercise-
-Why such high rep ranges?- the high reps sometimes recruit higher percentages of muscle fiber and also if he is using too much arms thee arms will fatigue quicker than the back and let the back start to do the workby itself - help with mind-body concentration problems
-Why so many sets? I have found over 18 years of training cleints and different reseacrh that 12-15 sets for the back works best for gains- the extra are not working sets but just sets to make sure the back is fatigued fully to allow for stimulation of growth work well for those that can not seem to gain as well as others
-Why scap the deads? Couldn't he just do rack pulls instead since that's the part of the movement that focuses on the back? yes rack pulls are fine but the deads just suck up so much energy and are not specific and he has been doing them faithfully so has more than likely adapted so to change -heavy tbar unsupported or 1 arm dumbell rows work very well specifically for thickness
-Why do sets of 100 of anything?- pure fucking shock- the guy who got me into adding 100s used to train with Frank Zane and Mentzer and sometimes would go weeks with 1-3 sets of 100 for each muscle group and grew like a son of a bitch, even off cycle. If you put them at a weight you can do about 80-90 reps and rest pause the last ten it will guarentee overload of the muscle and you will grow. I thought it was crazy until I trained with him for a month and blew up. Only certain exercises seem to work. Leg extensions, leg presses, hammer shoulder press, hammer chest- actually except for bis and tris which it doesnt work well for- I have done them on every piece of hammer strength equip.

Instead of DB rows I'd incorporate BB rows. Using strict form. Do not go heavy if your form isn't correct.
amen use both
I like MeowMeow's advice of using wrist straps or hooks. They pretty much take all the bicep out of the picture.
again awesome
Don't just do pull ups... do weighted pull ups Wide grip and than close. there you go perfect thinking...I'd suggest not doing any pulldowns or pull ups behind the neck to avoid rotator cuff injuries or possible cervical spine injuries- thank you for adding that its my pet peave- but as an addage i would say that only really applies with a bar- beacuse it puts the neck in a bad place and shoulder at a bad angle- with bi-lateral cable pulldowns you can emulate a behind the back with enough alteration in form to make it a great exercise////



#18 manimal78

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 10:44 AM

once again, thanks bros!!! some great info here.

if anyone has anything to add, dont be shy.

#19 Bison

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 06:58 PM

I have a 64" chest and lats that i can hang glide with, and the best thing you could ever do for any muscle size is be born from the right parents, genetics!!! But thats not saying you couldn't build it. My workout partner had no lats and now he's got a good V going. We started every back workout with 10 sets of 10 WIDE grip pullups. It was a perfect warmup and it wasn't overstrenuous for us. After that we hit...

2 sets warmup deads 15-20 reps
4-5 sets 8-12 reps deadlifts
4-5 sets 8-12 reps reverse grip bent over bb row
4-5 sets 8-12 reps wide grip tbar row
4-5 sets 8-12 reps db row (called them lawn mowers)
4-5 sets 8-12 reps straight arm pull downs (called them silverbacks, cause you look like a big ass silverback gorrilla when you do them)

The main focus of a back workout is your back. Concentrate on using your back muscles only. I always train people to "roll your shoulders" from the front to the back durring a back movement. That will help to ensure of a back lift instead of an arm lift.

Oh, and since you're skinny... feast to grow you lucky bastid.

Bison

#20 TKO

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 10:50 PM

QUOTE(dr. death @ Sep 12 2007, 10:34 AM) View Post

No prob..
-Why change rep ranges only every three weeks or so? gives the body time to start to adapt-but not adapt fully- you could actually change rep ranges every exercise-
-Why such high rep ranges?- the high reps sometimes recruit higher percentages of muscle fiber and also if he is using too much arms thee arms will fatigue quicker than the back and let the back start to do the workby itself - help with mind-body concentration problems
-Why so many sets? I have found over 18 years of training cleints and different reseacrh that 12-15 sets for the back works best for gains- the extra are not working sets but just sets to make sure the back is fatigued fully to allow for stimulation of growth work well for those that can not seem to gain as well as others
-Why scap the deads? Couldn't he just do rack pulls instead since that's the part of the movement that focuses on the back? yes rack pulls are fine but the deads just suck up so much energy and are not specific and he has been doing them faithfully so has more than likely adapted so to change -heavy tbar unsupported or 1 arm dumbell rows work very well specifically for thickness
-Why do sets of 100 of anything?- pure fucking shock- the guy who got me into adding 100s used to train with Frank Zane and Mentzer and sometimes would go weeks with 1-3 sets of 100 for each muscle group and grew like a son of a bitch, even off cycle. If you put them at a weight you can do about 80-90 reps and rest pause the last ten it will guarentee overload of the muscle and you will grow. I thought it was crazy until I trained with him for a month and blew up. Only certain exercises seem to work. Leg extensions, leg presses, hammer shoulder press, hammer chest- actually except for bis and tris which it doesnt work well for- I have done them on every piece of hammer strength equip.


-I was under the impression that they ought to be changed all the time because the body adapts really quickly to specific rep ranges, but it takes longer to adapt to specific exercises. If so, then wouldn't it be more prudent to use something like an undulating periodization scheme?

- I think I understand, since quads, delts, and lats, tend to be more slow twitch they respond to higher rep ranges, makes sense.

- It just all sound like so much work. 12-15 sets is A LOT of sets for one body part. I used to do this sort of thing for my back and I couldn't get it to grow worth a damn. Reduced my sets and reps, increased the weight, split it into two workout and bam...back development. I figure if the only solution I can come up with is to do more, there has got to be a better way of doing it to begin with, ya know? I wanna look good in the least amount of time possible, I'm lazy like that. I actually do 12-16 sets for back - just not all at once. For the average person, hitting a muscle group more than once a week induces hypertrophy better than only hitting it once a week. You can still get the volume you need to make your back grow, but by not doing it all at once the quality of the workout gets better. Just my .02

- You think deads suck up too much energy, but you'll 100 reps? I've done both and they are both taxing. I'd rather go heavier and be out of the gym in less time - again, the laziness thing. I think that your right when it comes to using high rep ranges for certain muscle groups - you know, the slow twitch ones, but when I say higher rep ranges I mean like 12-20, not 100.

#21 manimal78

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 01:28 PM

man, yall have helped out more than yall know...thanks a ton...everyone...

#22 manimal78

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 11:39 PM

outcome?

i had a back workout the other day,,and the next day my shit was actually sore..thanks to some of the advice from you guys..

started doing face-pulls, rows with palms facing forward, straight-arm pulldowns, doing high reps,,just focusing on feeling my lats.

#23 roibinator

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 11:02 AM

I use a thumbless grip on a lot of back exercises..keeps the biceps from pulling as much..
(not sure if it was mentioned already, but it works for me)





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