Does mixing the two defeats the purpose of useing creatine?Maybe possible ...I was reading something about this last week and it made some goos points.....What it said basically It is inadvisable,but it isnt lethal or damaging in ways that one might associate with a warning.Its not like mixing speed and beta blockers and isnt not going to cause you to drop to the ground gripping your chess with excruciating pain.However,it isnt gonna serve you well if the reason your're taking creatine is for intra cellular volume and muscle growth.Caffeine is dehydrating and draws water out from the body.Note:"when you take in creatine you're supposed to take in carbs at the same time.Well Caffeine actually reduces carohydrate uptake by up to 25% or so."...Thats more then enough to kill the main effects of useing creatine....In laymens term that means you wont beable to pull much into the muscle in the first place.So really your pissing away good Creatine...........So,for you coffice freaks.....Since its easy to have your coffee in the morning,piss it out and then dose Creatine in the afternoon around yourworks.Unless you guzzle down cofee all dam day Creatine will be worhtless for you.But keep in mind..A hope of promise........That coffee can be benificial as a mild diuretic during cycles where heavy water retention and lethargy are the norm.It has its place.
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Mixing caffeine and creatine
Started By deadweight, Nov 28 2008 11:18 PM
2 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 29 November 2008 - 01:24 AM
Thats a good read . thanks
I like my coffee , but if its going to not let any creatine absorb , then I think I will be lowering my intake to one or two cups a day and see how that works for me
I like my coffee , but if its going to not let any creatine absorb , then I think I will be lowering my intake to one or two cups a day and see how that works for me
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Posted 29 November 2008 - 09:32 AM
The Creatine-Caffeine Dilemma
Background
Obviously, creatine finds its way into skeletal muscle after being ingested. But, how is this actually accomplished?
From the blood stream creatine is transported into skeletal muscle via the action of transporter molecules distributed along the muscle surface. These are the molecular doors that allow creatine into muscle cells. Our physiological status determines how well these molecular doors work at letting in creatine. For example, sodium outside the muscle cell, the extramuscular sodium, regulates the activity of these transporter molecules. In this respect, an elevation of extramuscular sodium promotes creatine entry via these transporters.
Based on earlier studies showing that caffeine increases extramuscular sodium, it was proposed that caffeine should augment creatine transport into muscle cells and accentuate the benefits of creatine. Oddly, however, caffeine has the opposite effect than initially expected. Caffeine actually interferes with the enhancement of physical performance afforded by creatine. A possible explanation for this paradoxical finding is the topic of this month's newsletter.
The Study
A recent study specifically looked at the consequences of caffeine consumption on the physical benefit normally afforded by creatine supplementation. The study consisted of a cross over design, which simply means that the subjects were divided into either experimental (caffeine and creatine) or control (creatine alone) groups, tested after a week, switched of conditions and then retested.
Nine males participated in the study. Their ages ranged between 20 and 23 years. Initially both groups were given 0.5 grams of creatine/kilogram of body weight for six days. This amount is slightly greater than the typically prescribed loading dose. In addition, the experimental group was also given 0.005 grams of caffeine per kilogram of body weight on days 4, 5 and 6. Therefore, for the last three days of supplementation the experimental group consumed both creatine and caffeine. On the seventh day their physical performance was tested using knee extension torque measurements. This is one entire day after the last dose caffeine.
After a washout period of 3 weeks the groups were switched, such that the experimentals (caffeine and creatine) became controls (creatine alone) and visa versa. Assuming that 3 weeks was enough time to completely reverse the effects of caffeine, the experiment was repeated. In this respect the effect of caffeine could be compared in each individual.
The Result
Caffeine consumption negated the physical benefit observed in the creatine group. Surprisingly, the effect of caffeine was observed one entire day after the last dose. This finding was at first paradoxical, because caffeine, at least initially, was proposed to increased creatine absorption into skeletal muscle via its effect on extramuscular sodium.
The amount of caffeine used in this study is equivalent to 2-3 strong cups of coffee for an average sized male, or 350 mg of caffeine for a 70 kilogram (154 pound) male. One important detail might be that caffeine was administered in the form of capsules.
Interestingly, caffeine did not interfere with the rise in muscular phosphocreatine associated with creatine loading. Remember that phosphocreatine is the biologically active form of creatine found within cells. In other words, caffeine neither decreased (nor increased, as expected) creatine transport at the muscle surface. Its inhibitory effect was felt after creatine had entered the cell and converted to phophocreatine.
A Possible Resolution
Coordinated movement is the result of opposing muscle groups contracting and relaxing in unison. For example, when performing a curl our biceps (front of arm) contract into a ball, whereas our triceps (back of arm) relax and lengthen. On the downward movement, the triceps contract and the biceps relax.
Another example is sprinting. A sprinter initiates a stride by contracting the front muscles and relaxing the back muscles of one leg. To move forward, however, he must then quickly relax the front muscles and contract the back muscles of that leg, so that his other leg can shoot forward. Therefore, muscle relaxation is part of coordinated movement and thus speed.
Calcium is what causes muscles to either contract or relax. A muscle contracts when calcium is released from storage sites deep inside the muscle. In other words, free calcium is the signal that tells a muscle to contract. Likewise, our muscles relax when calcium is reabsorbed into these internal storage sites. However, the restorage of calcium is an energetically expensive process and in this manner muscle relaxation cost us energy. The energy that pays for muscle relaxation comes from phosphocreatine!
Dr. Hepel's group in Belgium has elegantly shown that phosphocreatine levels determine muscle relaxation rate. When our muscle phosphocreatine levels are high, as a result of supplementation, our muscles relax more rapidly. Conversely, when our phosphocreatine stores are low, muscle relaxation is slowed and our exercise performance drops.
Although caffeine doesn't alter phosphocreatine levels, caffeine may nevertheless retard muscle relaxation by altering muscle calcium levels. Interestingly, caffeine is known to release calcium form internal stores. As outlined previously, this would slow muscle relaxation and jeopardize exercise performance, despite caffeine's know stimulatory properties. Therefore, caffeine may negate creatine's benefit by liberating internal calcium and thereby slowing muscle relaxation time.
False Rumors
Caffeine is a diuretic, meaning that it increases the excretion of water from the body in the urine. There are rumors that caffeine counteracts creatine by interfering with muscle volumizing. This is simply a false rumor and assumes that water retention by skeletal muscle is the source of strength. Although increasing the girth (volume) of our muscles, volumizing per se has no proven effect on strength. This was the topic of a recent newsletter. View it here.
Take Home
If you pump up on caffeine prior to working out, while at the same time supplementing with creatine monohydrate to increase exercise performance, you could be wasting your time and money. Avoid this practice!
However, it must be mentioned that not all studies demonstrate an inhibitory effect of caffeine on the benefits afforded by creatine and may be a result of how creatine was administered, ie whether in liquid or tablet form.
Scientific References
Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P. (February 1996) Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 80:2: pages 452-457.
Van Leemputte M, Vandenberghe K, Hespel P. (March 1999). Shortening of muscle relaxation time after creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 86:3: pages 840-844.
Background
Obviously, creatine finds its way into skeletal muscle after being ingested. But, how is this actually accomplished?
From the blood stream creatine is transported into skeletal muscle via the action of transporter molecules distributed along the muscle surface. These are the molecular doors that allow creatine into muscle cells. Our physiological status determines how well these molecular doors work at letting in creatine. For example, sodium outside the muscle cell, the extramuscular sodium, regulates the activity of these transporter molecules. In this respect, an elevation of extramuscular sodium promotes creatine entry via these transporters.
Based on earlier studies showing that caffeine increases extramuscular sodium, it was proposed that caffeine should augment creatine transport into muscle cells and accentuate the benefits of creatine. Oddly, however, caffeine has the opposite effect than initially expected. Caffeine actually interferes with the enhancement of physical performance afforded by creatine. A possible explanation for this paradoxical finding is the topic of this month's newsletter.
The Study
A recent study specifically looked at the consequences of caffeine consumption on the physical benefit normally afforded by creatine supplementation. The study consisted of a cross over design, which simply means that the subjects were divided into either experimental (caffeine and creatine) or control (creatine alone) groups, tested after a week, switched of conditions and then retested.
Nine males participated in the study. Their ages ranged between 20 and 23 years. Initially both groups were given 0.5 grams of creatine/kilogram of body weight for six days. This amount is slightly greater than the typically prescribed loading dose. In addition, the experimental group was also given 0.005 grams of caffeine per kilogram of body weight on days 4, 5 and 6. Therefore, for the last three days of supplementation the experimental group consumed both creatine and caffeine. On the seventh day their physical performance was tested using knee extension torque measurements. This is one entire day after the last dose caffeine.
After a washout period of 3 weeks the groups were switched, such that the experimentals (caffeine and creatine) became controls (creatine alone) and visa versa. Assuming that 3 weeks was enough time to completely reverse the effects of caffeine, the experiment was repeated. In this respect the effect of caffeine could be compared in each individual.
The Result
Caffeine consumption negated the physical benefit observed in the creatine group. Surprisingly, the effect of caffeine was observed one entire day after the last dose. This finding was at first paradoxical, because caffeine, at least initially, was proposed to increased creatine absorption into skeletal muscle via its effect on extramuscular sodium.
The amount of caffeine used in this study is equivalent to 2-3 strong cups of coffee for an average sized male, or 350 mg of caffeine for a 70 kilogram (154 pound) male. One important detail might be that caffeine was administered in the form of capsules.
Interestingly, caffeine did not interfere with the rise in muscular phosphocreatine associated with creatine loading. Remember that phosphocreatine is the biologically active form of creatine found within cells. In other words, caffeine neither decreased (nor increased, as expected) creatine transport at the muscle surface. Its inhibitory effect was felt after creatine had entered the cell and converted to phophocreatine.
A Possible Resolution
Coordinated movement is the result of opposing muscle groups contracting and relaxing in unison. For example, when performing a curl our biceps (front of arm) contract into a ball, whereas our triceps (back of arm) relax and lengthen. On the downward movement, the triceps contract and the biceps relax.
Another example is sprinting. A sprinter initiates a stride by contracting the front muscles and relaxing the back muscles of one leg. To move forward, however, he must then quickly relax the front muscles and contract the back muscles of that leg, so that his other leg can shoot forward. Therefore, muscle relaxation is part of coordinated movement and thus speed.
Calcium is what causes muscles to either contract or relax. A muscle contracts when calcium is released from storage sites deep inside the muscle. In other words, free calcium is the signal that tells a muscle to contract. Likewise, our muscles relax when calcium is reabsorbed into these internal storage sites. However, the restorage of calcium is an energetically expensive process and in this manner muscle relaxation cost us energy. The energy that pays for muscle relaxation comes from phosphocreatine!
Dr. Hepel's group in Belgium has elegantly shown that phosphocreatine levels determine muscle relaxation rate. When our muscle phosphocreatine levels are high, as a result of supplementation, our muscles relax more rapidly. Conversely, when our phosphocreatine stores are low, muscle relaxation is slowed and our exercise performance drops.
Although caffeine doesn't alter phosphocreatine levels, caffeine may nevertheless retard muscle relaxation by altering muscle calcium levels. Interestingly, caffeine is known to release calcium form internal stores. As outlined previously, this would slow muscle relaxation and jeopardize exercise performance, despite caffeine's know stimulatory properties. Therefore, caffeine may negate creatine's benefit by liberating internal calcium and thereby slowing muscle relaxation time.
False Rumors
Caffeine is a diuretic, meaning that it increases the excretion of water from the body in the urine. There are rumors that caffeine counteracts creatine by interfering with muscle volumizing. This is simply a false rumor and assumes that water retention by skeletal muscle is the source of strength. Although increasing the girth (volume) of our muscles, volumizing per se has no proven effect on strength. This was the topic of a recent newsletter. View it here.
Take Home
If you pump up on caffeine prior to working out, while at the same time supplementing with creatine monohydrate to increase exercise performance, you could be wasting your time and money. Avoid this practice!
However, it must be mentioned that not all studies demonstrate an inhibitory effect of caffeine on the benefits afforded by creatine and may be a result of how creatine was administered, ie whether in liquid or tablet form.
Scientific References
Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P. (February 1996) Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 80:2: pages 452-457.
Van Leemputte M, Vandenberghe K, Hespel P. (March 1999). Shortening of muscle relaxation time after creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 86:3: pages 840-844.
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