19 replies to this topic

[gunner66]

Hey guys, I have done 3 cycles in the past. I am 5'6, 190lbs, 12% BF. Looking to recomp.

I haven't done a cycle in about 3 years. Previous cycles included: Test E, Tren A, Deca, Anavar, Tbol.

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Why this cycle:

A) Tren A and Deca shut me down HARD! I do not want to go through that again, so will be avoiding Trenbolone and Nandrolones.

B ) Test. The dosage I used in the past was 400mg and 500mg. I felt these dosages were more than I needed. Hence the lower dosage which is still 3-4x normal levels produced by the testes [and should produce positive effects].

C) Primo. Why not give it a try? Not harsh but can still bring on gains in LBM and strength.

D) Anavar. I love var. Need I say more? hehe

E) Winstrol. I am using a low-dose but still high enough of a dose to significantly lower sex hormone binding globulin and allow the testosterone that was bound by the SHBG to now be used for building muscle.

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Weeks 1-8
250mg Test C
300mg Primo
50mg Anavar
20mg Winstrol

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Now my questions/concerns:

1) Primo. What do you think? Equipoise would be 15x cheaper, but Primo has been said to be worth it if you can afford it. Equipoise is also a longer ester so may not fair well in this 8 week cycle. 300mg is what I have researched to be a good dosage, especially for a first-time using the compound.

2) The Length. How does 8 weeks sound? I'm sure some will think 10 weeks or even 12. Since I am using long esters I can see the argument. 10 weeks would be the longest I would go. My motto is "get in, get out, recover." I don't want to stay an extra 2 weeks and delay recovery for marginal benefit. So far I have decided on 8 weeks, but please let me know if you think differently. Bottomline: is the extra 2 weeks worth it?

3) Should I add the Winstrol? It is only 20mg so liver toxicity shouldn't be hazard, since the only other oral is Anavar @ 50mg. I am thinking this is worth it, and Winstrol's addition to this cycle should be noteworthy during the first few weeks when the Test and Primo haven't really kicked in.

Overall, is there anything you see that I haven't mentioned? If you an opinion on ANYTHING (compounds, dosages, etc.) please feel free to tell me. I am 100% open to advice and criticism!

Thank you everyone!

Cheez

[piotr]

I think you're missing the point with the 19-nor-testosterones. For the purposes of a relatively short course of steroids (few months max) the HPTA is shut down essentially irrespective of what you run. The only difference is the 19-nor's will shut you down faster, but either way after a two month course you will need post cycle therapy. As an example my testosterone was extremely low at the 5 week point of a course of test, bold and dbol. I had a blood test after 5 weeks of 50mg dbol ED. No matter what you run (with some very rare exceptions) after 2 months you will be shutdown. For that reason I don't really see your point when you talk about not wanting to go for an extra 2 weeks at the risk of compromising recovery. You will be shut down either way, whether 10 or 12 weeks. (Of course when we compare a 2 month course to say a 5 month course then the elasticity of the HPTA starts to come into play more, but we don't need to worry about that for your purposes)

Testosterone does not necessarily have to be the basis of your cycle. It is a good idea to cover yourself and include at least low doses, as many will find their sexual function and general sense of well being will suffer without it as a cycle progresses. But even this is not a hard and fast rule. Therefore there's nothing wrong with 250mg test per week per se – it depends on what else you have floating around. Another factor to keep in mind is that your recover will tend to be smoother with the inclusion of some test in the cycle, especially towards the latter stages.

Your course is too short for a cyp ester – cyp wont kick in well for 3 or 4 weeks, so I'd run cyp no less than 12 weeks if possible.

Methenolone is intrinsicly weak, in both anabolic and androgenic terms. Plus it is prohibitively expensive. For that reason I'm not sure why you'd include it. This one is best left for the ladies IMO. If you want something with almost zero sides to promote LEAN gains then substitute boldenone for the primo. Much much cheaper, a little stronger, almost zero sides. Even if you can only get the long ester, then just run the cycle a little longer

In regard to stanozolol decreasing SHBG, that is a response typical of androgens, not just stanozolol. If you want to provide cannon fodder for SHBG to free up test then you'd be better advised to use mesterolone, which has a high affinity for the protein compared to other androgens but also provides the benefit of aromatase inhibition. I've heard it bandied around that a "novel" use of stanozolol is lowering SHBG. People who say this got it from a study where stanozolol was used to measure androgen insensitivity in patients with suspected testicular feminization.

Anavar AND stanozolol? Why take both? Bang for buck you'll be far better off with stanozolol IMO. Not a favourite of mine, but I have time for it.

PIOTR

[gunner66]

Thank you piotr for your feedback. I appreciate it

What I was implying with my "extra 2 weeks" comment is: the longer one is the on cycle, the longer it will take one to return to homeostasis (HTPA, etc.) So, is staying on that extra 2 weeks, for the gains in muscle/fat loss, worth it? Considering by 8 weeks majority of the cycle's gains have already been acquired.

Thanks for your comment on the Testosterone 250mg. I have used 400mg and 500mg in the past. I felt my body doesn't need that my test and want to use a lower dose this time.

Primo is weak, but that's also why its safe (oh what a tradeoff, hehe). It is expensive, and so is Anavar, but that is why I am homebrewing. For this reason there aren't as many people with experience using Primo so feedback is scarce. But I have heard good things about it @ 300-400mg. I was juggling between using EQ and Primo, especially considering the price difference, but decided with Primo since I'm homebrewing [and therefore price isn't an issue].

Using Proviron? I'll have to do some for research on this, thanks. What has your experience with Proviron been? Curious

Winstrol would definitely be more bang for your buck, but I have used Anavar twice before and loved it. Practically zero sides and it leaned/hardened me up. I also already have some on hand. I threw Winstrol in there as my friend used 30mg anavar and 20mg winstrol in his recomp cycle in the past and had good results.

I look forward to your response piotr! I will consider lengthening my cycle to 10 weeks and look into the Proviron. However, I would like some more input! Thank you!

[piotr]

I'm happy to help mate...

In a strict sense the longer you stay on cycle, the more difficult it is to recover... However for reasonable, short cycles your shutdown is temporary and superficial (for want of a better term) and as a young healthy man your HPTA remains highly elastic... Hence I differentiate between a 2 month cycle and a 6 month cycle to illustrate the elasticity point... What I'm trying to say is that in practice there's almost no difference between being shut down for 10 weeks VS 12 weeks... 10 weeks VS 50 weeks would be a different story... And to use an extreme example to make a point, you can quite easily take a highly responsive HPTA and turn it to shit by staying on gear for 12 months straight... For the sake of getting the most out of the relatively long-estered aas you're using add on the extra couple weeks, believe me in the result it will have almost no impact on your recovery

I didn't realise you were homebrewing... Enjoy! For me there's an added element of satisfaction using gear you've brewed yourself... That being the case, since you already have the gear then you might as well run what you have and see the results... You can report back... I would still run the test at a higher dosage than 250mg... At that dose essentially you are doing HRT... So in a sense you're running primo, var and winny... I personally wouldn't run that but you're extremely conscious of side effects obviously

I'll pull you up on one thing... I infer from your comment about primo that you're happy to accept the trade-off of safety in lieu of efficacy... What about dbol for example? Dbol is perhaps the second most effective oral in terms of gains yet is for most people extremely easy on the body... I;ve used it countless times and have only ever experienced mild bloat as a side effect, which is easily countered by even a little proviron... You don't necessarily have to use weak gear in order to minimise sides... I'll leave that with you.. As an aside even with tren, if you're smart about it you can pre-empt many of the sides

I guess I'd say perhaps put your dick on the table a little and take a bit of a chance... with stuff like primo and var you're not going to make any drastic changes in size.. but if you're focused on cutting then they'll do fine

PIOTR

[piotr]

I'm assuming you have methenolone enanthate, as you're considering running it with test cyp... try this, keeping in mind how mild methenolone and anavar is and how you're adamant about keeping test low:

1-12: 400mg test cyp
1-12: 500mg meth enan
1-5: 50mg stana ED
6-13: 80mg oxa ED
14-15: 40mg nolva ED
16-17: 20mg nolva ED

Good luck

PIOTR

[gunner66]

Piotr, I am really thankful that you're taking the time to write out these thoughtful replies. You're being very generous and I value this!

I like what you just said about the elasticity of the HTPA....this makes sense to me! I agree!

Do note that I have NOT yet purchased all of my gear, I like to wait until after I am 100% sure to buy my product. It is always tempting to change things last minute so I try to have everything set in stone :-) The only products I have on hand are Test Cyp, Anavar, and Nolva.... I must purchase the Primo and Winstrol.

Oddly enough, the Winstrol was NOT originally in my plan for this cycle. This is something I just added last minute kind of like "Hey, couldn't hurt. Why not?" Hence the low dosage. But since I added it, why not make it worth while? I like the new dosing scheme.

I like the cycle you have laid out, the only thing I have strife with is the Testosterone dosage. Some people react to compounds differently as you know. For me, the times I have taken 400-500mg of Testosterone I have gotten bloated, my face breaks out like a 15 year old for months throughout and post cycle, my face gets really oily, I get zits on my back and chest, and my blood pressure raises (from the bloat). I noticed this @ 500mg and again @ 400mg. This is why I chose 250mg.
There is also an important topic I want to emphasize, because I see this discussed incorrectly on most of the online boards. 250mg of Testosterone Cyp/Enanthate is at least double what a HRT dose is. Medical experts say the testes of a healthy young male produces between 50-75mg of Testosterone per week! So while 250mg of Test Cyp seems like a low dosage compared to the gargantuan amounts we commonly see prescribed for a first-time user and veteran, it is actually still between 2.33 and 3.5 times greater than what our levels are pre-cycle [assuming 69-70mg active hormone per 100mg Test Cyp/En]. So even with 250mg of Testosterone per week there should be a benefit; I just feel that often this mild dosage gets labeled as being HRT, when in fact it is double what many people's HRT dosage is.

Piotr, since I originally drew up this cycle I have been pondering whether to increase my Test Cyp dosage to 300mg and now per your suggestion I will do so. But this is as high as I will go THIS CYCLE as I have used 400-500mg in the past (it has been 3 years) and felt I should have gone lower, so I feel now is a perfect time to do so. It seems that I need to work my way up to 400-500mg whereas some others don't.

Do note this cycle isn't a bulker, which is also one reason why I'm not using dianabol (I agree with what you said about dbol though). I am happy to accept the trade-off of safety in lieu of efficacy (great choice of words by the way piotr...very sexy! lol), you hit the nail on the head there brudda! I think I got shell shocked when I used Test/Deca/Tren/T3/Clen in the same cycle. (I did use Cabergoline throughout). I had night sweats, insomnia, anxiety, heart palpitations, random facial flushing, incessant sweating, and short temper/irritability (this was terrible), and so on... And I was using low dosages, comparative to the ones I outlined in my original post! But I will say that was my best cycle in terms of gains. So yeah, you are right...I am now preemptive about putting my dick on the table and have become extremely conscious of side effects. Completely correct in your assessment my friend I may just be one of the few who are sensitive to androgenic sides, maybe due to preexisting conditions such as anxiety, excessive perspiration, elevated blood pressure, and sensitivity to hot-cold fluctuations (which are exacerbated by AAS and consequently make me feel quite uncomfortable). This should explain why I have chosen these high anabolic to low androgenic ratio hormones.

I want to thank you again piotr for taking time out of your day to help me. I hope we can exchange a few more dialogues to improve my cycle. I am obviously a bit stubborn in my ways, so please try to work with me. Hopefully you now have a better understanding of what my reasoning is. Now, incorporating what you have suggested we are currently looking at this:

1-12: 300mg test cyp <--- **CHANGED**
1-12: 500mg meth enan
1-5: 50mg stana ED
6-13: 80mg oxa ED
14-15: 40mg nolva ED
16-17: 20mg nolva ED

I am still open to adjustments, but I would like to keep the Test/Primo/Anavar in there nonetheless. We can keep the Winstrol and add another injectible, or substitute the Winstrol for something else. I am all ears!

Thank you piotr! I do like the way you've changed up the cycle thus far, you've definitely increased it's effectiveness!

Cheez

[gunner66]

For instance:

1-12: 300mg test cyp <--- **CHANGED DOSAGE**
1-12: 500mg meth enan
1-5: 50mg stana ED
1-8: 80mg oxa ED <--- **CHANGED TIMING**
8-13: 50mg Tur ED <-- **ADDED**
12-13: 40mg nolva ED
14-15: 20mg nolva ED

Just putting this out there. I have used Turinabol and Anavar together in the past and only experienced some bloat, minor BP increase, and hairloss. I have considered running adex during this upcoming cycle to combat any bloat/bp issues. Hell, people are given adex when on HRT @ 125mg/wk...

Also, I had considered using Tren E (to lower # pokes) at a low dosage (to prevent sides) as I could run it along with the other long esters. When I say low dose though, I mean low....like 100-200mg. But then I stepped back and said "Cheez...remember what happened last time you ran Tren?" I don't think I'll run it though as there are other things that can be ran in it's place...err who knows...I ran Tren A @ 37.5mg EOD and experienced sides...so I'm kinda forcing myself to to just scrap the idea. I'm just too sensitive. Although for a recomp I agree there is NOTHING better! The stuff chiseled me up!

Feedback welcome

[piotr]

Yes the typical male produces no more than 10mg of testosterone per day naturally...

Question: when you were using 400 / 500mg test per week were you stacking androgens on top of that? test is generally not too harsh on most in terms of androgenic sides, it makes me think it wasn't the test but really the other shit you were stacking on top?

If you had dodgy androgenic sides from 400mg test PLUS tren PLUS deca then you shouldn't expect many if any sides at all from 400mg test plus something like bold or primo, the latter two compounds having essentially no androgenic effect on the male...

i'd personally think twice before stacking tren + deca...

apart from that I say stick to what I laid out above... you shouldn't need an AI on top of that but low doses wouldn't hurt, although if memory serves me arimi has a pronounced negative affect on IGF production so another may be a better bet...

PIOTR

[gunner66]

Thanks piotr. I have done a lot of thinking, so I apologize for the late reply. I know this is a still a bit different that what you suggested. Please don't take offense...I am stubborn.

This is what I have reconstructed.

Weeks 1-16: 400mg Test Cyp
Weeks 1-16: 400mg Equipoise
Weeks 1-8: 50mg Tbol
Weeks 11-18: 80mg Anavar

Weeks 1-18: 250IU HCG 2x/wk
Weeks 19-20: 40mg Nolva
Weeks 21-22: 20mg Nolva


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Also, I found this regarding Anti-E's and IGF-1...not sure on it's validity, but I have read before that Arimidex doesn't isn't as bad as Nolva in terms of IGF-1 production. Seems Letrozole and Aromasin are better choices.

Formestane/4-Androstenoldione Increases IGF-1 26%
Femara/Letrozol Increases IGF-1 24%
Arimidex/Anastrozole Decreases IGF-1 18%
Nolvadex/Tamoxifen Decreases IGF-1 23.5%
Faslodex/Fulvestrant Decreases IGF-1 70%
Cytadren/Aminoglutethimide Increases IGF-1 27%
Aromasin/Exemestane Increases IGF-1 28%

[gunner66]

Oops, I meant to only write the HCG until week 17, this way it is fully out of my system by the time I start PCT.

[piotr]

Much much better...I would only change this if you are set on running something along the lines of your revised idea:

1. increase your dosage of OT to 60mg per day
2. increase your dosage of BOLD to 500mg per week
4. dont start HCG until the second half of your cycle, there's simply no need running it start to finish

remember, bold, var, OT... They have almost no androgenic effect so you need not worry at all about that

But to be honest man OT will most likely give you very little results until those esters kick in... Its not much of a steroid for use on its own, which is what you'll be doing first few weeks... you need something a little more substantial first few weeks before the esters kick in

Think about doing this - very close to what you had planned out but a few tweaks

1-4: 30mg dbol ED (15mg x 2)
1-16: 400mg test / wk
1-16: 500mg bold / wk
8-18: 80mg var ED
19+: PCT
(start 250IU HCG e3D half way through)

Run a low dose of an AI throughout the cycle (but not arimidex)

I really believe the above would be axtremely good cycle, with minimal to zero androgenic side affects and no water retention issues... The dbol at the start is far better than OT

PIOTR

[gunner66]

Piotr, thanks brudda I like your suggestions.

Weeks 1-4: 30mg Dbol
Weeks 1-16: 400mg Test Cyp
Weeks 1-16: 500mg Equipoise

This is what I think is steady for now. A few suggestions:
#1) Increase dbol to 6 weeks? Dbol is super cheap cheap!
#2) Possibly introduce Tren E @ 200mg from Weeks 9 through 16. This is a low dose but still producing ~25mg steady serum levels [of esterfied hormone].
#3) I am interested in your logic for not running the HCG until the middle of the cycle? I can understand not running it until Week 4, but not until Week 9 or 10 I don't know why. The studies I have seen show that running HCG for the entire duration of the cycle to be effect, but I have not seen anything supporting starting HCG half-way through. Why not just play it safe for such a cheap compound?
#4) Anavar would be comparatively much more expensive to incorporate in this cycle [given it's effect] when compared to Dbol, Test Cyp, and Equipoise [which far outweigh Anavar's cost-benefit]. Tbol may be a nice alternative for about 60% the cost per mg. We could run it @ 60mg as you suggested.

As always, loving the feedback piotr! Please don't stop if you have time!

Cheez

SIDE NOTE: Here is a great study on Anavar @ 20, 40, and 80mg for 12 weeks. The 40mg was actually a great medium in terms of HDL/LDL changes, LBM gain, and fat loss. If you do not have access to the full version but would like it, just send me a PM. This is probably the BEST study on Anavar that I have on file (details liver toxicity, cholesterol, weight changes, etc.) Oh, and 20mg Anavar lowers SHBG 59%, 40mg decreases 63%, and 80mg decreases SHBG by a whopping 79%!!!!
http://journals.lww.com/jaids/Fulltext/200...sociated.6.aspx

SIDE NOTE#2: Here is a great research article on Oral Turinabol...this is very interesting! You may have already seen this however:
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1262

________________________________________________________________________________****In retrospect, given the above...my cycle would look like this****

Weeks 1-6: 30mg Dbol
Weeks 1-16: 400mg Test Cyp
Weeks 1-16: 500mg Equipoise
Weeks 9-16: 200mg Tren E
Weeks 8-18: 80mg Anavar (or Tbol @ 60mg)

OR THIS BELOW (The increased Test dosage to 500mg would be a possibility if I feel comfortable. This is of course a proposition and is awaiting your critique piotr Thank you sir)

Weeks 1-12: 400mg Test Cyp
Weeks 13-22: 500mg Test Cyp
Weeks 1-22: 600mg EQ
Weeks 1-6: 30mg Dbol
Weeks 9-18: 200mg Tren E
Weeks 15-24: 60mg Tbol
**Do PCT and then take 6 months off**

[deadweight]

I like to make things simple...For what you have layed out and considering its only like your 3rd cycle..Just about anything you run will have good big time effect...Just mak sure u consume atleast 2 grams of protine per body pound..Diet is very important ...dw

[gunner66]

Yes, diet is very important. VERY IMPORTANT! *emphasis*

1g/lb of protein MINIMUM and shoot for 1.5g/lb if you can. Of course 2g/lb of protein is what we would like to achieve, but I try to be a realist lol.

and considering its only like your 3rd cycle

This is my 4th cycle

[Rider]

Hey Gunner, got your pm.
Your cycle looks good. Since you have the Eq already, use it, but next time you don't need it. In my experience, EQ gave me decent vascularity after running in for over 10 weeks. It also gave me anxiety. Not worth it in my opinion.

I like proviron. Since you running a 16 week cycle consider using it starting at week 8, 50mg per day. Proviron will be enough to stop the minor bloat you encounter.

You don't need Letro, since your test dosage is not high. If you go over 750mg then consider an AI.